Luke Vandevert: 00:00:00
Probably not the best place to tear your clothes off and run around like David because yeah, you probably won't be leading worship there again.
Stephen Toon: 00:00:11
And that has happened. I know.. think it was in my twenties when I heard about this guy in Alberta actually, was leading worship at a youth camp and felt the Lord was telling him to be like David. And he stripped down, and he got fired pretty quickly cause, but hey what a heart. You would it be funny if you're like, yeah, that was me.
Luke Vandevert: 00:00:36
You see I heard about a guy doing it in the studio, but I, that's,
Stephen Toon: 00:00:42
Oh, you're talking about me.
Luke Vandevert: 00:00:43
Oh yeah, you do it in the studio?
Stephen Toon: 00:00:45
Well I, I've done a few things in the studio. It's usually studios in Abbotsford. It's something in the water. It's the Mennonites and the water. Causes a lot of nudity, when you're recording worship albums, whatever worship– what's a worship album? That's a whole other conversation. It's not a genre!
Hi, welcome to worship leader life podcast. I'm your host Stephen Toon. And we're here to disciple worship leaders.
Stephen Toon: 00:01:23
Hey, hey, welcome back to our podcast after. Oh, there's my chair creaking again after, what it feels like a long delay because it just took me a while to get this one cleaned up audio-wise — lots of chair's creaking. I guess. We are pleased to present an awesome conversation with Luke Vandevert from the Arctic. The Arctic is his band, his musical, what shall we call it, moniker and great music. We played some on our last episode, and Luke is an awesome guy. I use the word awesome a lot because I think life is awesome. People are awesome. And because you are awesome without any more preamble, here it is a conversation with Luke and me. So Luke, Luke Vandevert, Lucas or Lukather or what's your first full name?
Luke Vandevert: 00:02:34
Stephen Toon: 00:02:35
Is it really?
Luke Vandevert: 00:02:36
No, no, it's, it's just Luke. I do think that my dad always said it was a biblical name, but he's also a huge fan of Star Wars. So I, part of me kind of goes like, yeah, yeah. You keep telling yourself that it's a biblical name, but I'm pretty sure it's, it's different. There's a different intention behind the name. Let's be honest.
Stephen Toon: 00:03:02
Yeah. That's awesome man. Yeah, it's like Jasper, I didn't even think of this, but my son, Jasper, like there's a character named Jasper in the Twilight Series.
Luke Vandevert: 00:03:15
Stephen Toon: 00:03:16
And I kind of knew that. I just forgot like, but we named him after Jasper in Revelation. Lisa, came up with that one, but some people have thought, oh, is that Jasper? Like the vampire? No, but, but I was a closet Twilight fan when, when it was all the rage years ago,
Luke Vandevert: 00:03:39
Stephen Toon: 00:03:40
Luke Vandevert: 00:03:41
It takes a big man to admit that it's, yeah. You man,
Stephen Toon: 00:03:47
I am a big man, but so welcome to the worship leader life podcast. You are probably the most handsome man we've had on
Luke Vandevert: 00:03:58
Oh shucks you.
Stephen Toon: 00:04:01
And you know, just a welcome to my friend Luke Vandevert. He's very handsome, very talented, and I like to call him Luke VDV. Just you know, I've got a few friends named Luke, and I want to make sure I'm thinking of the right one. There's one, his last name is Knoll, k, n, O, l, and your VDV and there are a few others but uh, anyway, so thanks for doing this man.
Luke Vandevert: 00:04:38
Oh, thanks for having me. Stephen.
Stephen Toon: 00:04:40
I met you probably at long and Long and McQuade maybe.
Luke Vandevert: 00:04:45
Yeah, it would have been at Long and McQuade. That was the first, our first interaction and I think Debbie Fortnum told me
Stephen Toon: 00:04:55
Luke Vandevert: 00:04:56
She was like, you must meet Stephen because he's, he's your brother. This sounds like a good relationship. And then you came into Long McQuade, and the world just got a lot better,
Stephen Toon: 00:05:13
Mine too. You've you always bring joy to my life when I walk in and see your working. And so for those, if you're listening and you are not Canadian Long, and McQuade is a, is our go-to the music store. And you know, I've bought so much gear through from Long McQuade over the years. I bought my first acoustic, I bought my first, not my first electric but I, but I got my first, you know, real pro-level electric and amp years ago and I've financed many an instrument and pedal of lots of pedals. So I'm sure that's part of your story to Luke. Hey.
Luke Vandevert: 00:05:58
Oh Man. I think Long and McQuade, it was probably like, Oh guitar center is in the stage and like you know, I think we're kind of like the hub for the cause and solution of life's problems, you know.
Stephen Toon: 00:06:11 Totally. Yes.
Luke Vandevert: 00:06:14
Stephen Toon: 00:06:15
And there are other, there are a couple of other chains and stores and there are people who have tried to do like online music stores here and but I just, it long equates kind of my go to, I don't even have one near me. Yours is the closest I, we live three and a half, four hours away from each other and, and I, I could go to Kamloops that's closer but Chilliwack is closer for me cause I'm going there a lot more. But anyway, that's, this is boring, boring stuff. But it is the kinda interesting cause as a worship leader, and as a musician, I would not have access to the gear I have. And even the knowledge I have without a company like Long and McQuade who's they have made it their mission to get instruments into the hands of musicians and potential musicians. Right. So I think that it's a great service. I don't mind paying interest to a company like that because you know, I, I've benefited from it like over and over and over again. So thanks for working there man.
Luke Vandevert: 00:07:23
Oh God, I'm glad to serve you?
Stephen Toon: 00:07:26
Yeah, usually my friends work there. Like, I mean I, I over the years like who's got friends at Tom Lee, not me. Hey, so here's a quote. Here's something else I realized I met you at long and McQuade but I think I had seen you, or maybe, I don't know when you were working for the Vineyard Church and Chilliwack, you were running sound for Tom who was leading worship that day. And you were the worship guy, like the pastor, I guess worship pastor there for a while. And, but that wasn't your day to lead. He was leading, and you were doing sound. I remember running into you there. I don't know if we had met yet, but anyways, that's how I know you from vineyard circles and also from the Long and McQuade and just some mutual friends. So I'm really glad that we're getting to do this today. You've got some awesome projects going on, the Arctic Music and a few other sorts of things that are stirring and bubbling and, and on top of that year worship leader. So yeah, you're in the right place, man. So why don't you tell us like when he tells us about yourself, tell him I'll stop talking now, and I'll edit all that out and then
Luke Vandevert: 00:08:45
It's such a beautiful talk.
Stephen Toon: 00:08:46
Yeah. Well, you know, I didn't shower for today's meeting, but I sure sound like I did. So anyway, tell us about your journeyman. Your journey with Christ your journey with music, your journey with worship and ministry, yeah.
Luke Vandevert: 00:09:04
Yeah. Oh, well thanks Stephen for bringing me on. This is, I love you, love you dearly. And it's kind of neat because you get a chance, we get a chance to kind of talk about our origins in essence, right. Because even though we know each other, we don't know a lot about each other. And so it's like we're, it's like we're on a first date
Stephen Toon: 00:09:25
Yeah man. It's not blind, but it's our first date.
Luke Vandevert: 00:09:31
Yeah, well actually I should kind of start, I'm originally from Alaska, so I was born in the states. My dad is originally from Oregon, and my mom's from the, Nanaimo BC.
Stephen Toon: 00:09:44
Luke Vandevert: 00:09:45
Yeah. So it, so for the most part, I grew up in a small town called Powell river. And I often joke that I grew up with a Republican and some Newfoundlanders, even though it just, it isn't the case. It just seems like everyone from the power of her has this little slur that's kind of similar to a Newfoundland accent, which is, so I was very spoiled with breaking up the character involved.
Stephen Toon: 00:10:16
So are you telling Powell River, BC? or, or
Luke Vandevert: 00:10:20
Yeah Powell River BC? So, yeah. And I told my dad, worked with, um, fish farms and so he was up in Alaska and eventually as part of the family business, there was a kind of a fish farm starting up in Powell River. And so he, and that's all moved down to Powell river to work on this fish farm. And so yeah, that's how I know mostly for my upbringing was all in Powell River for the most part. But you know, like we would go to this little community church and be involved there anyway. So I grew up in, grew up in power for most of my life. My dad, was fairly involved with a church there called Kelly Creek community church, and that's kind of where as a family we'd go to church. So definitely had a Christian upbringing and a lot of, you know, my parents did an excellent job raising me and have an understanding of the Bible and, you know, they were wonderful parents for sure. But I've always, from a pretty early age, I always kind of really loved music. I loved dealing with music. I remember so many times I'm playing a cassette that my mom made, which was, a lot of beach boys, Nice Beach Boys, and I would listen to that so much and I loved just pulling that old cassette out and then flipping it around, putting back in, hitting play, flipping and again put it in and just keep it going. I really, yeah, I loved music growing up, and yeah, it added a, yeah, just loved it. It was such a, it was such an expression for me at a young age to kind of find something that just appealed to me. So, you know, eventually, you get a little older, and I decided to go, you know, take an interest in drums, joined the worship team at 12 I was 12 years old. I got kicked off the worship team.
Stephen Toon: 00:12:40
Hahahaha what? No
Luke Vandevert: 00:12:43
It was like some context. It's a small church, right?
Stephen Toon: 00:12:48
Luke Vandevert: 00:12:48
So it's like, oh, this little guy has interest in drums. Sure. Why not thing is, I was 12 years old with no lesson. So one, I kind of keep a beat, saved my life. Do I hit the drums so hard. So it was like, it was just like, yeah, this is a bad idea
Stephen Toon: 00:13:07
Oh you poor guy though...
Luke Vandevert: 00:13:09
Oh yeah. I was brokenhearted.
Stephen Toon: 00:13:10
And the other lesson in there for, you know, auditioning and having a bar.
Luke Vandevert: 00:13:16
Stephen Toon: 00:13:16
Cause they don't want to crush a young person who has all the passion and energy. But they're just not ready yet. And then so you hire them to fire them and then they never play again, right?
Luke Vandevert: 00:13:29
Yeah, exactly. Everything's just tainted after that point. Right. It's like every desire. They had to be like, wow, I want to be a musician. And just, you know, especially our worship context, I want to praise God with my instrument. And then they're like, well, guess what? We brought you on and now we're going to crush your dreams because we didn't facilitate the growing but anyway, it was, I don't blame them for that at all in all the grudge of that is all. But without a doubt that passion for music still stayed. And I did drum still in and developed in drumming for the high school bands, and stuff where the loud worked and doc keeping a beat worked because we were all bad it musicians anyways. So it was like, eh, sure, why not? It was fine.
Stephen Toon: 00:14:18
Did you play and it's like punk or?
Luke Vandevert: 00:14:20
You know what it was. It was, it would always be like, it would change because our friends as we'd go through different things. So I had a, I had a good friend who did a lot at like Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath and loved the old rock stuff. And then and some other guys lived closer to town and they'd play like system down and Linkin Park, uh, you know, there was a, another guy that would write his own stuff and, and I was, you know, it was just, it was fun. I definitely don't regret that kind of upbringing cause it was, yeah, it got a lot, a lot of that instilled in, that kind of weaving itself into me. But what's in, what's interesting is worship, was a little bit of later development in my life because I, you know, I'm kind of like middle school getting into high school. I still loved playing with bands and try and, you know to let loose term bands, but I just have this passion to always do it. And then, you know, I still not understanding what my faith was and still aren't knowing kind of doing this a goal. Yeah, I went to church, but I know and I officially accepted Christ at a young age. But it's also that tension of like, well, what's the real-life situation now? Do I actually know who Jesus is in Canada? You know, era. I think everyone goes to that point when they're younger. So then a huge thing where I found my interactions with God's word through camp. Summer camp and going away and going to a place where everyone's there to have fun but also get really good teaching and things becoming very real. So that's when it was like, oh, okay. You know, maybe there is this thing and something stirring in me. And then realizing, oh well I kinda like guitar, maybe I can play guitar. And then that church that kicked me out when I was 12 and he said, hey, you know what, why don't you come to practice and just play your chords and we'll try to just play these chords and you're not going to be a part of the worship team, but you can at least practice there. And it's like, yeah, I can do that. And start learning my E chords and my D chords and A and started playing that and eventually the guitar just kind of locked onto me and it just, I couldn't stop playing. I remember buying my first guitar, taking it home and I had a quick guitar lesson from the guy who sold me it. And I went home, I played and I actually made my fingers bleed
Stephen Toon: 00:17:13
Luke Vandevert: 00:17:14
And I couldn't stop playing the thing.
Stephen Toon: 00:17:18
Luke Vandevert: 00:17:18
They're all bleeding. I was like, I should rest. And then two hours later I was like, I don't care. There's scabbed over and grows. And I was like, I gotta keep going. This is so much fun. So I just started to keep going at it and it was just, it was awesome.
Stephen Toon: 00:17:33
That's cool man, My son was about that. And I was like, oh, cause he was talking about Jack White and on that movie it might get loud. There's this where he's bleeding, right. Anyways, tell him that you actually, you did it.
Luke Vandevert: 00:17:50
Yeah. It was like, yeah, it was, it's pretty rock and roll. But eventually, as you know, life circumstances happened and I mean, there are a lot of things that God made himself known to me in very real ways. My dad got sick with meningitis and it was very close to leaving us. And I remember that process and I remember doing the bartering thing with God. You know, it's like, God, if you let him live, I will x, Y, and Z. I'll change this thing. I'll stop these things, I'll, I'll do all of that, you know? And, and then he got better. And of course, I discovered how bad at keeping promises. And then he started to recognize that tension of cultural, you know, association and not knowing your identity and just you become flaky. And it was, it was growing but without a doubt. It became to realize this God is very real. You know, it's like, and in a good sense, I need to grow in fear. And what was really cool, even though I was on back to the worship stuff, still playing guitar with this worship team is practice The pieces to kind of started falling into place of like, wait for a second, this isn't just playing guitar. This is actually making, you know, we're actually interacting with God. This is a conversation and we're facilitating that. And that was probably, I was like, I don't know, 15, 16 when that, those pieces started to kind of fall into place about, oh this is so much more than I, you know, so that was kind of like the starting journey of this is what worship is. So fast forward me,
Stephen Toon: 00:19:44
You're more mature than me. Cause it took me a little longer to realize just how close he is as we worship. Right. Like I mean, but that's the, so that's amazing. That's really cool.
Luke Vandevert: 00:19:55
It's, but it was, it was without a doubt, a very, I shepherded thing. Even though I did feel that a lot of it was discovered that I, there was so many people involved in helping me realize that in, and it wasn't by them saying, oh well when you play a G chord, you know, it's like, you know, and you do it on Sunday. It means this. It wasn't that. It was like people leading by example.
Stephen Toon: 00:20:22 Oh my G, so good.
Luke Vandevert: 00:20:24
This makes this starting to make sense. So, you know, fast forward a little bit more life stuff happens and come grade 12 and going through a pretty significant depression. That's when I found God really intervened. Cause it was, it was pretty bad depression. And I'm not gonna sugarcoat. It was, I was very close to committing suicide and how Jesus became very, very real in, in my weeps and my, you know, in my weeping and my tears. Jesus really made himself known. And that's when the, you know, it was kind of like, okay, this, I have to take what I've been learning about worship and actually apply it in every capacity. So that kind of was my coming to of thing.
Stephen Toon: 00:21:22
Yeah. Depths of that. It's like, I mean, yeah, re-read some of the psalms. It's not, it's not like it's new. And yet when you're in the middle of that, in the midst of that is unbelievably dark and feels near impossible to make any kind of decision like that, you know? But you did it and that's, yeah. And we could talk for hours about that, but that's amazing. That's God's grace right there. I mean.
Luke Vandevert: 00:21:54
Yeah, absolutely. It was, and it's, you know, in, and we'll kind of talk about this a little bit later, but I found so many of them, as you know, I, yeah. I found a lot of the stories I have are associated with scars. You know, it's like, you know, if you think about, you know, what stories have and you know, kind of like fueled your, your things. Most almost all of my stories are not like good things that have fueled my, yeah.
Stephen Toon: 00:22:31
Maybe good came out of it. Yeah. But like it's, yeah, yeah,
Luke Vandevert: 00:22:35
Yeah. They're never like, oh, you know, I was, I was in the Tabernacle, you know, I was like, he's like, and God came down for me that that hasn't, it has been the case. But the ones that have the most impact that has really, for me, I have defined my path, had been through a lot of trials and a lot of pain and out of that God makes himself known. And so it, that's a spy story
Stephen Toon: 00:23:08
That interesting you said there, even, you know, he said, I was in the tabernacle like years ago and my friend Lincoln used to say like, you know, worship it, it can be painful. And he talked about Isaiah and having burning coals touched to his lips. And so in the same way, like there's so much good that comes out of these crazy situations and experiences, and it's just more and more kind of proof. That's where God, he loves to meet us. He loves us so much. He'll step right into those painful places and say, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here. Like, don't worry, I'm here, you know? Yeah. But I, you know, it's, it's life. It's, it's also in worship and you know, just that, that, yeah. That's a good man.
Luke Vandevert: 00:24:02
Oh, that's it. That's it. You nailed it. All right. It's just how it's, it's the story of Jesus in general, like how Jesus cuts through to meet us where we're at. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, Oh yeah. Grace is a beautiful, beautiful thing. So I, yeah, and it kind of, that basically in the context. So, you know, that was high school. I remember having the conversation with my parents of, they're like, what do you want to do? You're in grade 12 and I'm going, I feel that I'm being called into ministry and worship. And then being like, no, you know, I always like when people say, yeah, but anyways, but in fairness, like I totally, totally understood where they're coming from because it's like, you know, like, I mean, as, as much my parents were dear and I love them to bits, but they kind of were like, yeah, here's the thing. It's like, you're, you're, you need a tent making thing. You know, you're going to need something like this and here's this little guy about to, you know, like, I'm ready to go and do music and serve the Lord. And they're like, oh no, our son's going to die. So I, I get that. And I remember a very distinct moment of being an emotional state of just like, I feel like this is where I needed to go. And I got my headphones on and we're all in the car and I'm staring out the window, like listening to casting crowns or something. It's like, oh, in my own little like, tension world. And, uh, everyone gets out of the car and my dad stays in the car and then he looks at me and goes, do you really feel that this is where God's calling you? And he's, I was like, yes, I do. And it's the only thing I feel like I can do. You know, I, uh, my, my dad worked on a fish farm. My brother was a welder. And both of them can attest that when it comes to labor jobs, I'm the absolute worst, you know I'm so bad at, I think it's the artistic character, you know, it's just like, I think artistic people aren't, you know, it's like at, you know, build a house, build us a house and it's going take us like 20 times longer
Stephen Toon: 00:26:34
Unless you'd see, unless you're, unless you Brian.
Luke Vandevert: 00:26:37
Stephen Toon: 00:26:39
Mind you that's roof[ing]...he goes, he comes at the very end. He puts the roof on something. But yeah.
Luke Vandevert: 00:26:43 Yeah it's true. He's, I think some people can do both. It's this, and it's, I think it's just, we're a gifting lies. And like, some people can do amazing things with their hands and creating work hard. And for people like you and myself, I think working hard is a different form. It's, it's instead of looking at a wall and saying, I will build a wall, it's like, well how do we find the right thing that is needed? The thing that says something different, you know, that's where we tend to think a little bit more versus just building the wall. And sometimes he needed starting to sound like Trump doesn't realize like, oh, this doesn't sound good at all. I should change the metaphor. But I'm American.
Stephen Toon: 00:27:31
Two out of three of my interviews has been with Americans who are now Canadian, but,
Luke Vandevert: 00:27:39
Well, I mean, you don't, you could sweat the middle because I am a duly telling you this. Go in the Middle Lane. Yeah, it's getting, you've talked to a one and a half Canadians and one and a half American.
Stephen Toon: 00:27:50
There you go, that's perfect.
Luke Vandevert: 00:27:53
It works out but yeah, we, I think artistically we look at things differently, and I think that does take time, right? It's kind of like inspiration. A lot of the time when you're, when you're trying to write a song, some people can work with deadlines and some people at it, you can work within a deadline, but you don't, you're not happy with the result sometimes. Right?
Stephen Toon: 00:28:15
Well it's like talking about process, talking about stuff coming out of the pain. Like my wife and I are wired very differently. She's a beautiful singer, songwriter, musician. But you know, I can stay for hours working on mixing a song or fixing something or working a part out and she's more like the overseer producer type that, you know, I see this, this and this. Let's do it, let's get it, let's get it done. And so like if it came to building a house, I think she would just get in there and make it happen. And I'd be getting stuck on things, thinking what is like the best possible way to build this thing or to shape this wall or two. And I get just stuck on details like that because I like it. You know, I liked the process. I like it, I like the result, but I also, I don't know. So I think you know, yeah, there's, there's some, and so we spent hours and hours playing our instruments or honing our craft. And we don't think that's weird, but other people do. Other people are like, you know I posted a video about the little ebook that I put out and some dude, I don't know where he's from, but he wrote on the wall, stop your whining and complaining. Go. What did he say? Go oh yeah, it's something about drywall. Go drywall for a day or something. I Dunno, it was, and he used to, he used some language to that. I that I didn't appreciate, I saw this guy's trolling, he just wants me to bite. Right. But but that does exist, that idea that like, oh, you know, I should just show up to church on Sunday and you guys just do the thing so I can sing the songs and get to the sermon and, and, and then during the week you should go you know, have a real job. Or, you know, but I mean, anyway, that's a whole other topic to, I'm sorry, I'm robbing boy.
Luke Vandevert: 00:30:29
I understand the, where that stress comes from because we just watched the movie sing for the first time and this one part just made me laugh so hard where the, uh, the showman who's trying to like make this production, you know, it's dealing with, it's this really quick snippet, but it was like, that's, that's, that's it. Exactly. Um, she's Megan's production and then there's this, this character that's trying to make this, you know, artistic thing and you know, she makes like a quote really quick passive aggressive comment of like by you would understand the artistic process and he's like, Yup, I don't, and so it was like that. That is, that is part of it that without a doubt, the artistic process is something that I don't think for s for those, for some people they understand and I, I get that. But the reality is too, we, we need our artists in our world.
Stephen Toon: 00:31:30
Luke Vandevert: 00:31:31
And that is, I think art is what does change things. It helps people open their mind up. I get worried when people disregard artists because that kind of goes like, well, if you're disregarding artists, you're, you're kind of putting yourself in a box of ignorance, and that doesn't help you grow. So I, I always get a little tweaked when I hear know. It's like, ah I don't, don't do it.
Stephen Toon: 00:32:03
Oh, I'm also the kind of guy that wants to s to say like, I'm not just an art. You know, you can't just, you can't put anybody in a box or formula or whatever. Like there's way more to us than just playing guitar and singing, and you know, like, and yet, yeah, it's just weird. It's this weird tension of like being creative and being myself, trying to be who I am and who you are, you know, but also still being an adult in this world who has to make a and do my laundry and my dishes and take care of my kids and whatever ray-like. Yeah. So it is a weird, it's like people want to, I think it's this rock star mentality. We grow up. We watched this, this whole thing of like, oh, that person's an amazing musician and look at how they get to live. And we see through film or documentaries or whatever, we see this crazy lifestyle of just like, you know,
Luke Vandevert: 00:33:05
Yeah, I, it's, I think there's this, the file, then, it's the kind of like the false illusion of the American slash Canadian dream essence, right? And so it's easy to go and see someone pursuing what they want to do as a living or attempt to mega live again and, and just regarded as, oh well they're good. And if they're going through our times, it's entitled positioning of a part-time, which is not the case. It's just, you know, everyone, everyone struggles. Life's hard.
Stephen Toon: 00:33:36
How about this too? Like if you're, the story about the, the texts and the oil man who goes down south and meets the guy on the beach, who's coming in, you know, it's still morning and the guys coming in, he's got a couple of fish that he's caught, and the guy goes, where did you catch those? He's right here. Those are nice. So what are you doing now? He's like, well, I'm taking one to the market to sell it and taking the rest home. And he's like, well, why don't you stay out longer and catch more fish? She's like, well, cause I want to go home, have, have a meal with my family and sit around the fire on the beach and play guitar and hang out with my son and the guy calls. Listen, listen, I'm in big business, you know, I can help you. You need to stay out longer, catch more fish, go to the market. You can sell those fish, save your money. When he, once you've saved enough, you can get a bigger boat. And he goes through this whole thing, right? If you ever heard this,
Luke Vandevert: 00:34:34
Yeah I've heard this, it's, Oh,
Stephen Toon: 00:34:36
And then the guy's like, and then the guys that, but why would I want to do all that? Well, because you know, I could have you, you'd be a multimillionaire and in five, ten years and then you could retire and you, you can hang out on the beach and play guitar all day. He's like, but that's, that's what I will be doing now. What are you talking about? I'd rather keep doing it now. I'd rather do this for 50 more years, then that waste 10, you know, so this idea that you know, what do we, what are we trying to get out of this process and are we enjoying it? Are we not enjoying it? Are we experiencing it or are we just pushing through because we want some result or, anyways, that's all good stuff? That's the kind of stuff I think about all the time and philosophize in my head about, but I'm so sorry. So your, so your parents finally, or not finally, but your parents blessed you and your desires and endeavors and went to become worship for rockstar.
Luke Vandevert: 00:35:41
Oh, it's hard enough. Sorry. Gag Reflex
Stephen Toon: 00:35:49
Exactly, exactly. Of you went to start training in the Lord's work.
Luke Vandevert: 00:35:53
Yeah. Yes. It was a very holy endeavor. So after that, shortly after I graduated, I moved to the island with my buddy, and we were brought in for a youth group to start the developing a worship team for them. And we started a little band over there, and that eventually led into you know, from there going to Columbia Bible college and started, you know, realizing, oh, I can learn more about this specific area. I don't have to pioneer think quote unquote thinking I'm pioneering something when it's like, oh, people have done this way before. I guess I was just completely, I was just completely ignorant to the whole thing. So I was like, oh, well that makes sense. So I would rather learn from people then completely tried to think in my line of thinking and get everything wrong. So that involved me moving down into, you know, the phrase of Valley. So that's, and we've been here ever since. So CBC did a lot, and I learned a lot and you know and out of that came into, I'm going to this church called the Bridge and, and then being like, this is, this is where things get kind of cool for me. I was as at the bridge and people are kind of playing and singing, and I'm like, you know, it's just this beautiful worship community. First thing I noticed right away was that the congregation faced each other and it was like, this is such a beautiful image of what we're doing. Like we're doing this together, we're together. It praising God there. No, it was just, I loved that it was like, this is a community and this is gathering, this is something visual. But then I started noticing like, these songs are all songs. I started singing as a kid and I'm like, Huh. Like I've heard, you know, these, you know, faithful one before. I've heard all these other songs before and I'm like, uh, that's interesting. They really liked the songs and I'm like, And then all of a sudden I'm realizing, wait for a second, and I'm like reading the names and I'm like, this guy, wait a second, he waits, he goes here, you know, like ha, well I ain't going to deserve like winning this like connection of like, wait a second. Those songs I grew up with, it was like, as long as I grew up with, they're coming, They're from here. Like this, this thing called the, I mean the bridge was a vineyard split and so it was like, what is, what is this thing called the vineyard? I've never like, I know all this, this is my childhood coming out. And it had no idea. Like it was like I know all these songs as a kid singing them and just really impacting me and then realizing, wow, they were so close to home, you know, like, oh, she knows so cool. And then so that kind of started the vineyard connection and kind of thing. So I did work Northview for a little while. I was under Johnny Mark and that was wonderful. And then I think a year later after Northview Chilliwack Vineyard hired me out to come and be their worship pastor right here. And hence I'm out here. So out in the Wack
Stephen Toon: 00:39:40 Where do you live In Liwack I'll bleep it out for them. You right in town or
Luke Vandevert: 00:39:47
I'm on, I'm on the north side.
Stephen Toon: 00:39:49
Luke Vandevert: 00:39:50
Kind of by the tracks on central. So
Stephen Toon: 00:39:52
Cool. Cool. Yeah, I grew up half Strathcona or Fairfield Island and half and Mittle mountain and then the other half Promontor so
Luke Vandevert: 00:40:03
Stephen Toon: 00:40:03
Well, I've been on both sides of the tracks, man.
Luke Vandevert: 00:40:05
And you have, he knows it all.
Stephen Toon: 00:40:08
Yeah. Never near the tracks, but that's another story.
Luke Vandevert: 00:40:13
Oh, we lived pretty close to the track. So for the longest time, it was earth quick.
Stephen Toon: 00:40:18
Yeah. Yeah. Right on
Luke Vandevert: 00:40:19
Stephen Toon: 00:40:21
Yeah. My grandfather went to central elementary.
Luke Vandevert: 00:40:26
Stephen Toon: 00:40:26
The whole family. We all went, we all went to Chilliwack senior and junior. And My, my kids will be like one of the first, uh, that, that isn't going to go there from my family. So we moved there soon. Oh. Anyway, so dude, uh, I don't want to skip ahead too far, so that's, you're like, so does this bring us to where you are now?
Luke Vandevert: 00:40:51
Yeah, it pretty much like it was where I am now. He's a little bit different because I'm not a part of the chiller wagon yard anymore about three years ago we, we kind of separated or, you know, I kinda separated or not separated. And let's use a better word that we
Stephen Toon: 00:41:12
felt it was time to move on?
Luke Vandevert: 00:41:14
Yeah, he has, let's go with that. Let's go with that. Yeah. It was time. We parted ways. I will say that will the Chilliwack I've been here and I just parted ways and that was, that was a good, interesting season because I wasn't too sure of what was next to come and started questioning a lot of things because it was a bit of a surprise. It was an, I think, you know, my insecurity was definitely there and kind of sensing of what am I supposed to do? You know, I've been pursuing this thing of worship for, at this point, almost close to 10 years. And I'm like, is this, is this really what God has planned? Because I don't know. And wrestling with everything that week, I got about five phone calls from churches that I've never had association with saying, Hey, we need a worship leader for this weekend or for a weekend and we got your number from, you know, all these different people and, and friends and stuff like that. Would you be willing to come out and seems like, Huh? So it was a very interesting cause that, that just kind of started snowballing. In that first year, Rachel and I, my wife and I, we just kind of took a liking to see, I had about 10 Sundays off that year after it was just, it just was, and it was all these different churches is asking if I'd come lead. It was, it was such a reality, it was needed. It was like; it was such a huge affirmation for me cause it was, I was oh, I just wrestling with everything you, you doubting all things at that point, right. It's like; I don't know, did I, did I stray from what God wanted me to do or did I, you know, it's, yeah,
Stephen Toon: 00:43:08
I've been there, man. I, I've been there. I've, I've had twice been laid off at churches and thought, what did we do wrong? Like once the whole staff got laid off because it's just money wasn't there. And uh, things kind of a, we all stuck around for a while, and I eventually got called to another church, but the church is still there alive, and well, it was a great experience, but at the time is tough. Right. And then I got laid off in another church and then the last church I was at, it was a partying ways thing. Not, not like, uh, well I resigned because I felt called to come back, come back down south and, and you know, just very, there's a lot, I'll tell my story on another episode, but, but it was so hard because it was unexpected, kind of like you said. Right. It wasn't what I planned. I thought we were going to be there for 20 more years. Like I love the church, love the people, love the town up in Prince George, but God had other plans and, and now we're here. So I know what you mean. Like can you, and when you get those signs, those affirmations, like, you know, whether it's gigs or just words through friends or God keeps speaking something to your heart, that's what you need in seasons. So I'm really glad that you didn't throw in the towel because that would have sucked. And, uh, I'm glad you got all those gigs, so that's great, man.
Luke Vandevert: 00:44:41
It was, it was, uh, yeah, I think you understand when that, when you, when something unexpected happens like that, and you start questioning everything, because I think as artists we tend to, we look way past than just the surface level is a tendency. So we, we go and question everything and then those snowballs and it's so easy to get stuck in this whirlwind of doubt, you know? And, and,
Stephen Toon: 00:45:15
And, yeah. Yeah we do also, we're able to see deeper the other way too, like, which I think it's hard, it's easy to go to the negative stuff, but it's, it's as an artist, as a worship leader, as a musical being, you know, uh, it's important to keep well too, too, to work on your perspective. You have like, I love this idea of like, you, God like God empowers our will. The Lord loves to empower our will. He doesn't force his will on us. He doesn't, you know, take over and turn us into robots. But there's this idea of like the same will that you use to choose, um, to walk off a cliff is the same will that you use to choose not to walk off a cliff, you know, so and you're in these situations where we're in the process and it's dark and it's scary. And as, as deep thinkers and as process people and as artists who have a vision, I think it's; it's, there's something to be said about um, practicing perspective. You know, I like a Casey Corum as a song years ago. He's, he, he sings the line practicing presence. For me, practicing presence has, has, I'm, I think maybe I need more a Ritalin or something. I'm losing focus right now. I approximate presence for me also has lots of doing like allowing the Lord to show me what are the options here as far as my perspective on things. And I go dark. I go deep and dark and negative a lot, and that's okay. That's part of the process. But he's also been showing me that you have a great vision, artistic mind. You can start going up and positive and like a dream and think of the bright side kind of thing. Not, I don't mean that in a cheesy, trite way. I just mean like think of the yard.
Luke Vandevert: 00:47:28
There are two sides of a coin, right? There's always that. And that is, it's good too, to be honest with your at and it's, you know, it's, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's always good to have the two sides, and that's why I think relationship comes in handy, right? We're relationships kind of key that everything we do as people like it.
Stephen Toon: 00:47:55
Sorry, just my wife's texting me. Oh, it's all good. For those who are listening, we are skyping, so we can see each other. So I was just looking to the side off camera, and I didn't want Luke to think I was getting distracted. Uh, we are just checking in with my family. It's Family Day here in PSC is why where we are not with our families. Yeah. We're both has, not with our families, but yeah.
Luke Vandevert: 00:48:20
So for those who think we should go dry walling right now,
Stephen Toon: 00:48:26
Our boss would have to pay us time and a half cause it's a stat holiday. Anyway, so, so yeah, so you're talking about like, yeah, I'm not talking about ignoring the dark and the bad and all that, and you're not either. But it's interesting as we figure out who we are as creative people, you know, that we're able to mine the positive out of something too. And that happens with our helpers, our friends, our mentors are our spiritual directors. You know, that's a big part of what I want to do with worship leader life is help people to cultivate a relationship, mentorship, learning from the greats by reading, uh, learning from each other through community. So that's awesome man. So obviously you had some relationships that helped you.
Luke Vandevert: 00:49:22
Yes! Absolutely. Every, I mean on so many sides, how, you know, community and relationships. So key to everything we do, especially as worship leaders too. It's, yeah, worship leaders of feel have this strange culture that it revolves around different things because it's easy to think things one way. It's easy to lean towards. Another, it's easy for lead pastors to think of worship leaders in one way or the other. It's, it's uh, yeah, going to, I'm not going to sugar coat. Worship leading is a; it's all over the place when it comes to Sunday mornings. You know, it's, it is. And like, yeah, I mean, there's so much amazing things that have happened within the church. And God without a doubt uses worship leaders. But I, side note, I, I've found that there's the leadership of the church plays a huge role in worship culture, right? And so it's, it's so difficult when leadership sees the worship team as the opening band for the sermon, and you're missing the entire point of what worship supposed to be. I don't know. Anyway,
Stephen Toon: 00:50:54
How's about this? Take a slice out of your leadership lives. Okay. So, and say a church budget, uh, is a church spending money on worship? And I don't mean music necessarily. I just mean like, are we fostering worship? Are we fostering prayer? Are we fostering, you know, ongoing active relationship with God and ascribing worth to the Lord. And you could say, yeah, the whole thing is worship true, but like look at a budget and where's the money going? Okay, so then take, take a look at a pastor, your lead pastor's life. Do they have a culture of, of uh, intentional worship in their life? And you could say, well, worship is life, so is everything. Yeah, I know but there are, there are intentional things we can do to spend time with the Lord and you know, and so like it's interesting and I'm not saying like, I'm not trying to blanket, oh, all senior pastors are like, they're not like, I'm just saying like you want to know where you take the temperature of a congregation as far as their worship. Look at theirs, a look at their leadership and the the way that they're go to practices or routines and look at their budget, how they spend their money in and look at their service and how it's mapped out in and cause anyways, you know, all this stuff.
Luke Vandevert: 00:52:25
It's funny. I, you know, I, I don't know. Its part of it is in a lot of ways because of your story, Stephen and my story in regards to her church relationships. I think for us and a lot of people that have gone through some tough times, we want to encourage those that are like, I want to get into worship leading. And we're like, yes, do it. But be careful because we love you and we understand it's not going to be easy. And you know, we want to be here for you because
Stephen Toon: 00:53:04
You and I both know some people who are a lot older than us, who this has been their life. And you could argue that some of these folks, it's been a very successful life. But you sit down, and you hear their stories. It's tough, man. Like, uh, I interviewed Andy for the first episode, uh, Andy Park and you hear his story. It started in the dumps. He got fired from his church not fired in the sense like you're fired, but like, he was in Hollywood, played at the vineyard there, a Hollywood vineyard or, or West LA, I can't remember. And you know, guys like Bob Dylan and, um, uh, what's his name? Um,
Luke Vandevert: 00:53:52
I remember hearing about Bob,
Stephen Toon: 00:53:54
The producer T-Bone T-Bone, these guys were attending and, and the pastors, uh, whoever decided we need to up our games musically because we've got all these professional, you know, musicians. And anyway, you, those who've listened to hear all this, right, but, so he got the boot and it, how devastating was that? Now imagine if he had a given up right then. I wouldn't be here today without his friendship, mentorship and, you know, he kicks me in the butt sometimes.
Luke Vandevert: 00:54:32
He's good. He's, he's, he's a good, he's, he's a good mentor because, I mean, Andy, I love the man to bits, you know, he's, he, and you know, and Brian and all those, they, they don't, they tell you to like it is, which is everything you need to hear. Um, and
Stephen Toon: 00:54:55
They don't leave you there.
Luke Vandevert: 00:54:57
Yeah, they don't. They never do. I've, I've loved, I've love to get in those. And I've been getting to know Andy more and more. We've been going to the table together. That's our current church we're at. So, you know, it's, we've been loving, you know, I've been loving to get no, Andy Moore, the guy, I have the utmost respect for those guys.
Stephen Toon: 00:55:16
Next time you're there, asked him about roaring hooves
Luke Vandevert: 00:55:20
Roaring. Who's? Okay
Stephen Toon: 00:55:23
Asked him. It's, it's uh, it's uh, it's a, it was a good moment in our life
Luke Vandevert: 00:55:31
Stephen Toon: 00:55:31
Now enough of this name dropping anyway. Yes. That was me. I started that. No, but I mean I just relating to that other interview, it's like, um, you want to say like you're in the right, you're in the right life. Yes. Be a worship leader, but be careful you said, right.
Luke Vandevert: 00:55:51
Yeah! It's, it's, it's just like, cause I don't know, there's, there's this is this part of you that knows and I think honestly, it's not just worship leading, it's, it's anyone in pastoral ministry. It's anyone that interacts with people. I imagine it's the same heart for someone that's like, you know, see some kid, I can't wait to go into customer service. You know, they're like, oh, do it, but be careful. You know, it's like, yeah, I think that there's this compassion that's rooted in like it's not easy and it's, you're going to have hard days. Um, and please have a support system in place that, you know, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, sorry.
Stephen Toon: 00:56:37
Oh I see. Who is it? Stephen Furtick or somebody talks about Highlight Reels. Like we all see these highlight reels from these big ministries or even smaller churches. Like we get to see Highlight Reels, and we compare our lives to that. And so a young person who's starting as a worship leader they, they think my life's going to be the Highlight Reels and when it's not, um, I just hope we can all be there for them to help them with the disillusionment and say, don't worry, it doesn't, it's not all Highlight Reels. It's not all big concerts with lights, and everyone's singing your song at the top of their lungs. And there's a lot of hard work and just normal. It's just normal life. Like in some ways that guy on Facebook had it right. Like, stop your complaining. But I wasn't complaining. I don't know why he said that,
Luke Vandevert: 00:57:28
But he does. This is life. It's true.
Stephen Toon: 00:57:32
Yeah and I thank God that he has walked with me through it and said like, see, it's no different than becoming a plumber, a lawyer, uh, you know, a retail salesperson, a manager at a restaurant. It's just life. It's work. You got to learn how to do it. You've got to find systems and routines and things that work for you. You got to study and hone your craft. And so we're not complaining. We just want to support and help and, and uh, find what my friend, he was RCMP; he is RCMP still. He's a member of the RCMP and he, uh, I remember early in his career he got disillusioned because he thought he was going to be helping people. But it turned out it was always the bad guys calling the police to come and deal with other bad guys. It was like entitled people who were crooked, who are lying, who were making stuff up, calling the police on their neighbors who are also crooked and it's not, you know what I mean? It's not always like that, but he just realizes I'm not helping people. I'm babysitting people. So he had to work through that and cause he for years wanted to be a policeman. Right. And so anyway, sorry. So, well not, sorry. This is great. I mean, we're just talking and hanging out. I know you had some stuff on your heart about leading out of, you know, weakness and leading out of these places. Um, I have a feeling like we could make this a ten fart podcasts.
Luke Vandevert: 00:59:04
It might, you might need to do a series on it because, and without a doubt. All right. I mean, how many friends we know that can talk about these because I think everyone will experience that and, but it's, it's just this interesting tension of, oh no, our insecurities. How do we, how do we effectively lead out of our insecurity? Um, because I, I don't know. Some people can't almost, I mean, I, I've seen it, I've seen people put on a facade for worship leading. And it's heartbreaking to me. Um, you know, and it's, I think the image of performance comes in. You know what, Jeremy Riddle had this amazing post where he says his biggest wrestle was performance.
Stephen Toon: 00:59:59
I just read that was it last week? Oh my Gosh,
Luke Vandevert: 01:00:01
Oh my gosh...Mwaah,
Stephen Toon: 01:00:02
Oh yeah. Oh, I loved it. Yeah. Loved it.
Luke Vandevert: 01:00:06
And it's, and without a doubt, I, he totally hits the right chord because it's, it's like, yeah, like there is a sense of performance, and when you leave worship, it's some, I mean it, I did for a long time and then I can explain why, but I definitely would put on a mask or a facade or a character of what I thought, oh, we should, a worship leader should look like, you know, and my gosh, and it wasn't that I, you know, God still worked through that I think, but my gosh, I was, I was, I was lying to myself in every aspect. I wasn't me. I was being what, you know, picture perfect. Luke could have been, but it wasn't me. So you know, you have this kind of like acting versus authenticity balance and this tension that I feel is really important because are we really worshiping ourselves when we're putting on something that you know and like are we fully know, are we fully worshiping God with all we are if we feel like we have to quote-unquote perform, you know, and obviously there are stipulations to that because it's like you have to have control. Do you know what I mean? It's like if you're a very expressive person and you're going to a Mennonite Brethren church, shit, probably not the best place to tear your clothes off and run around like David because yeah, it, it probably won't be leading worship there again, um,
Stephen Toon: 01:01:53
That has happened was in my twenties when I heard about this guy in Alberta was leading worship at a youth camp and felt the Lord was telling him to be like David and he stripped down, and he got fired pretty quickly. Cause, but he what a heart. You wouldn't be funny if you're like, yeah, that was me.
Luke Vandevert: 01:02:18
You see, I heard about a guy doing it in the studio, but I,
Stephen Toon: 01:02:24
Oh, you're talking about me.
Luke Vandevert: 01:02:25
Oh you're doing Studio?
Stephen Toon: 01:02:27
Lies. I, I've turned a few things in the studio. It's usually studios in an, in Abbotsford. It's something in the water. It's the Mennonites, and the water causes a lot of nudity. When you're recording worship albums, whatever a worse, what's a worship album? That's a whole other conversation. It's not a genre. It's a, it's an offering to the lord and it, anyway, hey listen, I have an idea.
Luke Vandevert: 01:02:53
Stephen Toon: 01:02:54
We've learned a lot about your life and your journey, and I've shared some things. And would you be open to doing part two and making part too about the leading out of brokenness cause I got some stories too and we could kind of like share a couple of things and see where it goes? What do you think about that?
Luke Vandevert: 01:03:15
That's a great idea. I'd love to come to as long as you'll have me back.
Stephen Toon: 01:03:18
Oh, of course. Oh, I have you back in an incident. I would make part two right now except I need to make coffee and check on my son. That's a good home. Sick. No, I can hear him. He's in the other room. But like dude this has been so good, and I don't want it to, I feel like we just got started. So Luke and I have been talking about some awesome stuff just about the worship life as a worshiper, as a disciple life as a worship leader. And we just had a little chat off mic about; I want this to continue. I think we have a good thing here. I would love to uh, make this part one and get to part two and maybe have part three. My one of the podcasts I listen to, these two guys, they have, they have promised each other that they're going to do at least one podcast every year or six months or something. And so they, they have this series and the, and they have, they see we are going to at least 25 or 50, I can't remember. So they're on like number six right now. And so when they talk about it, it's like, this is episode number six in our series and they have a title for the series and six of 25, but they haven't recorded the other 25 bags. This thing to keep them going, you know. So this is episode one on worship leader life podcast, worshipleaderlife.com podcast. I like to say the.com so people know and you've been listening to Luke VDV Luke Vandevert.
Luke Vandevert: 01:05:01
I'm going to start calling you a Stephen TDT
Stephen Toon: 01:05:02
TDT, Stephen TDT. So, um, we are going to do this again very soon. So this is part one of a 50 part podcast, which we will be putting up every few months or weeks. At least this, the next one's coming soon though. Don't worry. Now, how can we get a hold of You to hear your music? Where can we find you?
Luke Vandevert: 01:05:27
Yeah, so you can find me where, um, well I have a website called the Arcticmusic.com like the cold place. Feel free to shoot me an email if I said some heresy or if I, you know, like keep me accountable. Um, uh, I always up for conversations and I love meeting and talking with people. Uh, emails, email@example.com. Uh, I'm on Facebook too. facebook.com/theArcticmusic, Instagram, Twitter, the whole Shebang. And, uh, yeah, I like, I like it meeting people. So say hi.
Stephen Toon: 01:06:08
Yeah, say hi to him before you come. Say Hi to me. And if you're listening to this, uh, we transcribe our podcasts, uh, sometimes not on the same day that they get released because there are lots of ups and ahs and misspelled words sometimes. So I go through them, and I make sure it makes sense, but you can find all that on worshipleaderlife.com, and we all saw on Instagram and Facebook and all that stuff. But before you go there, I want you to go check out Luke's firstname.lastname@example.org. Is that right? Okay.
Luke Vandevert: 01:06:47
Also on Spotify and all that fun stuff too.
Stephen Toon: 01:06:49
Yes, yes. Those are good places. And um, yeah, you can contact him through there, and there's something else I was going to tell you guys today. Ahhh Oh, just briefly, is there a book or a new song you can tell us that you're doing these days?
Luke Vandevert: 01:07:14
Yes, yes. Um, for anyone that's looking to develop their furthering in all things, worship, I highly recommend, I highly recommend the four pillars of them. Awesome. Worship. Little Plug there for me to say.
Stephen Toon: 01:07:32
Finally, I forgot when I sent that you, I forgot that there's a story in there that has to do with someone you're very close to.
Luke Vandevert: 01:07:42
Oh really? Oh, I haven't finished reading it yet.
Stephen Toon: 01:07:44
No, you'll get, you'll see it. You'll laugh. You'll laugh. I just totally forgot to tell you about that, but you'll, you'll still see that, and that's it. That's it. That's a good plug. Thanks, man.
Luke Vandevert: 01:07:53
Anytime. Glad. Glad to support. Um, and two more books. Uh, Andy Parks, new book living in humility is actually really quite good. Um, and that's a great stance and posture of worship, especially if you know a way that Andy story if you haven't checked the other podcast with them and check it out. Cause Andy's, he's remarkable learning over Andy. He's handsome too. He is a pretty handsome fella. And the last one, um, a huge impact on me as I was in college and trying to figure out what worship was. Worship Matters by Bob Kauflin. Oh yeah. Fantastic book. And it's very; it leaves quite an impression on you as a starting read for sure.
Stephen Toon: 01:08:43
Awesome. Yeah. I remember that book when I was teaching at Pacific Life Bible College, but I can't remember if I've actually read the whole thing or just referenced it in our class, but I'll have to look. I'll have to check that out. Um, dudeness,
Luke Vandevert: 01:08:59
Stephen Toon: 01:09:00
Oh, I was going to say a heresy. Don't worry. Uh, I'm a, I'm licensed and are deigned minister. I like to tell people that on the podcast just so that they can hold me accountable too. Like with the Christian and Missionary Alliance in Canada, I have, I have no idea why they allow me to have that title, but we aren't just two crazy kids doing our own thing. We are tight. We are rooted in the local church. Uh, we are very much a part of the the life of the British Columbia Church and all the fun things that are going on and we love you all and we thank you for listening and I'm going to make all of you come back next week and listen because Luke's going to tell us his favorite songs that he's doing, but we're not going to tell you yet because it's a secret. You have to come back and listen again. Thank you so much, Luke.
Luke Vandevert: 01:10:02
Yeah, thank you.
Stephen Toon: 01:10:04
You are the bomb
Luke Vandevert: 01:10:06
And you're the bomb. Ah, love this man.
This has been the worshipleaderlife.com podcast. You can find this worshipleaderlife.com, and we just released a new mini ebook called four pillars of an awesome worship leader. We'd love for you to check it out. That's that worshipleaderlife.com I'm your host Stephen Toon. I'm an ordained minister with the Christian and Missionary Alliance in Canada. I was a pastor for almost 20 years, and now I support local churches by disciplining worship leaders, and I look forward to serving you again. Our next podcast is going to be released in a week, and I really hope you join us. Thanks. Bye Bye.